tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28113006.post8013982280207569083..comments2023-07-13T08:48:47.109-05:00Comments on The Race Set Before Us: What is the difference between "condition" and "basis"?abcanedayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13671418539630398806noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28113006.post-28962377760031736502007-12-18T15:14:00.000-06:002007-12-18T15:14:00.000-06:00JGB,I'm sorry for such a late response to your que...JGB,<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry for such a late response to your question concerning <I>ordo salutis</I>. <BR/><BR/>When Anthony Hoekema published <I><B>Saved by Grace</I></B> (Eerdmans, 1989), I immediately resonated with his approach to the question concerning <I>ordo salutis</I>. I had already come a position very much like his. He addresses the question in chapter 2, pages 11-27.<BR/><BR/>Like Hoekema, I do not advocate for the notion that the <I>ordo salutis</I> (process of salvation) should be understood as a linear series of successive experiences such as:<BR/><BR/>regeneration --> conversion --> justification --> sanctification --> perseverance --> glorification<BR/><BR/>Rather, I view the process of salvation as a unitary experience that involves various aspects that all begin and endure simultaneously. Such a view, or variation of it, it seems to me is imperative, given the fact that justification, biblically speaking, is both <I>now</I> and <I>not yet</I> just as all other aspects of salvation are, including reconciliation. <BR/><BR/>We do not sequentially progress through salvation as though moving through segmented chambers or rooms. Rather, we experience salvation as a whole in seed form with every aspect already present from the beginning. The transformative aspect (holiness) are present simultaneously with the legal aspect (justification). The two aspects are distinguishable but utterly inseparable. Like a seed, such as an acorn that contains ever aspect of the mighty oak within itself, every aspect of salvation from inception to consummation is present from the beginning of our experience of salvation.<BR/><BR/>That's how I view <I>ordo salutis</I>, if we are to call it <I>ordo salutis</I>.abcanedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13671418539630398806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28113006.post-76639237171715138922007-12-09T22:52:00.000-06:002007-12-09T22:52:00.000-06:00Dr. Caneday,I currently live in Little Rock, Arkan...Dr. Caneday,<BR/><BR/>I currently live in Little Rock, Arkansas. I have considered coming to one of Desiring God's national conferences which might allow our paths to cross. However, my wife and I are about to have twins (we already have a son) so any such trips appear quite far into the future. I'm curious if there are any conferences that you attend in the south. <BR/><BR/>If I may ask another question on justification related to this post...<BR/><BR/>I haven't seen you deal with ordo salutis anywhere. I'm curious about this because many people are keen on having a very strict, clean ordo salutis that involves faith but not works. Justification plays a huge role in much of those discussions, of course. However, does viewing justification eschatologically mean "elongating" ordo salutis? Is ordo salutis even a Biblical concept?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802948871755648540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28113006.post-76028562897854073532007-12-06T11:18:00.000-06:002007-12-06T11:18:00.000-06:00JGB,If I'm in Minneapolis, where are you located? ...JGB,<BR/><BR/>If I'm in Minneapolis, where are you located? Perhaps our paths will cross someday.abcanedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13671418539630398806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28113006.post-87468313495976147742007-12-05T11:24:00.000-06:002007-12-05T11:24:00.000-06:00Dr. Caneday,You have correctly interpreted my ques...Dr. Caneday,<BR/><BR/>You have correctly interpreted my question, and your answer has been helpful.<BR/><BR/>An explanation of <I>why</I> I asked the question may be helpful. I grew up in the Baptist tradition, but I always understood (whether it was taught this way or not) faith and works as being rather dichotomous. There was a large emphasis on faith <I>alone</I>. This of course led to serious problems with the text (specifically James) later in life, and it hasn't really been until the past few months that I feel I have understood the faith/works "dichotomy." <BR/><BR/>You, Dr. Caneday, NT Wright, and George Ladd have all helped me understand that it is actually the doctrine of justification that holds faith and works together, eschatology being the key component that makes this true (at least as far as I understand it).<BR/><BR/>Therefore, I now see that while there is a semantic distinction between faith and works they are "organically bound together" so tightly that they are essentially different sides of the same coin.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for your interaction on this blog. It has meant a lot to me. I think that you are the kind of teacher that I could really benefit from in a mentoring relationship. Too bad you are in Minneapolis!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802948871755648540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28113006.post-46832124416700820002007-12-04T09:11:00.000-06:002007-12-04T09:11:00.000-06:00JGB,Thanks for your questions. I started this blog...JGB,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your questions. I started this blog to receive questions on the subject of the book, <I>The Race Set Before Us</I>. I regret that I am not able, as I wish, to give as much time and thought to questions raised here. But I do make an effort.<BR/><BR/>I want to be sure that I understand your statement, <I>The condition/basis you discussed most thoroughly was essentially that of faith/election (my paraphrase).</I> I understand you to mean that as I use the term "condition," this entails faith, and as I use the term "basis" this refers to God's grace that shows itself in his electing of us and his gracious provisions for our salvation in Christ Jesus.<BR/><BR/>Also, I want to be sure that I understand your question as stated, <I>Do you see faith as being the basis of works so that there 2 "layers" of bases/conditions? If not, can you explain the "basis" of works?</I><BR/><BR/>With regard to the relationship between faith and works (good works), chapter 3 of <I>The Race Set Before Us</I> (pp. 87-141) provides my fullest expression. If I may quote from the book, here is a portion from the chapter's conclusion.<BR/><BR/><I>A full array of metaphors [imageries] provides definition to the abstract concept of faith. To believe in the God who rewards whoever seeks him is to taste, in advance, the glorious salvation of the age that is yet to come. To believe is to engage is strict self-discipline, to compete in the good competition of faith, to run, to land blows on oneself, to look to the Son of God for life, to eat of his flesh and to drink of his blood, to hear and follow his voice. All these and more provide contour and texture to our understanding of what faith is. At once these metaphors [imageries] call us to act in obedient faith to the heavenward call of God in Christ Jesus and provide a standard by which we may know that our faith is authentic, though not perfect"</I> (pp. 140-141).<BR/><BR/>Faith and works (good works, of course) are organically bound together. Faith and works are inseparably bound together just as the body and the spirit are inseparably integrated (<A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:26;&version=47;" REL="nofollow">James 2:26</A>). Remove works from faith, and faith is dead faith. Remove faith from works, and works are dead works. <BR/><BR/>Faith and works are organically integrated as are a seed and growth. If there is a sprout, there is a seed from which it springs. The seed is dead, if it does not sprout.<BR/><BR/>Is my response reflecting a correct understanding of your question?abcanedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13671418539630398806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28113006.post-86956614410021506832007-12-03T22:21:00.000-06:002007-12-03T22:21:00.000-06:00Dr. Caneday,Your post has been most helpful. Than...Dr. Caneday,<BR/><BR/>Your post has been most helpful. Thank you for attention to my question. I have a follow-up question (surprise, surprise!).<BR/><BR/>The condition/basis you discussed most thoroughly was essentially that of faith/election (my paraphrase). I wonder if you might then address the issue of works (Spirit-driven works, not Pelagian or "dead" works). <BR/><BR/>Do you see faith as being the basis of works so that there 2 "layers" of bases/conditions? If not, can you explain the "basis" of works?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802948871755648540noreply@blogger.com